Bonus: Survivors and the Media

Carol:

Today, another promised bonus episode.

When I covered Phyllis Cottle’s rape and attempted murder I had no idea what I was doing.

I was 22 years old, and aside from learning – on-the-job - how to cover a police investigation and a trial I had to learn how and when to approach victims of crime.

I’ll just say that part really sucked

I find it difficult to approach victims. Even though I know it’s part of my job – and, in many cases, I know it’s necessary.

Their stories are emotional, they’re compelling – and make an audience care. And, often, survivor stories help us find out what happened from their point-of-view – which, at times, differs from what authorities will tell journalists.

Still, inhumane to approach someone at the worst time in their lives. Back in ’84 when my boss asked me to call the hospital to ask Phyllis Cottle if she would go on camera, I was horrified.

Phyllis had been raped, beaten and blinded with a knife.

I told him, “no – can’t do it.”

He said, “if you don’t, someone else will.”

And someone else did, a lot of someones. Experienced reporters – from bigger TV markets – they found out that Phyllis went to her mother-in-law’s house when she left the hospital. And they went there too to get an interview.

They called the house at all hours, hid in the bushes. And, yes, they were insensitive jerks – but they, unlike me, got the interview…at least one of them did.

It’s something I still wrestle with today. Did I do the right thing by waiting to get an interview?

I talked with Phyllis’ daughter, Dianne and Drew, Phyllis’ grand-daughter about that.

Dianne:

It was crazy.

Carol:

So the crazy thing, like I said, it's my first big story, I'm 21, I just ...

Dianne:

Were you in the bushes?

[laughter]

Carol:

And I almost got fired because I was not in the bushes. So I remember my news director calling me and saying, "You have to go to the hospital and ask to talk to her." And I'm like, "She just went through this terrible trauma, I can't do that." It just never entered my psyche that that would be the human thing to do.

Dianne:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Carol:

Or that she would ever agree. And of course she agreed. And that made me wrong. And my news director right. And got me into trouble.

Dianne:

Oh ouch.

Carol:

But I think that it was a learning experience for me. I would never hide in the bushes because that's just wrong. Right? But you never know how victims of trauma will react.

Dianne:

Correct.

Carol:

Or what they want to do until you ask.

Dianne:

This is true. Ask nicely. You know? Nice begets nice.

Drew:

Well I was going to say, I think if it happened to anybody else they would. If you would have walked into their room, they probably would have been like, "What is wrong with you? Get out." But she was like, "Well, it's got to come out sometime and we're going to bring him down. So might as well start now. Tick tock."

Dianne:

Yeah. For me it was crazy. I mean, and unfortunately, because I was actually looking to get into journalism. And how everybody was clamoring. I mean, they were clamoring over each other trying to get to this window. And it kind of made me rethink my career path. It was really ...

Dianne:

So they were trying to look in the window for like a…?

Dianne:

I think they wanted ... Yeah, I mean, honestly. Bad news sells, we all know that. And I think they just wanted to get a picture of her. You know, the police report and the media had already said something happened in the West Point area, blah blah blah. As people started putting two and two together, they realized that hey she's kind of in bad shape. We've all done it, going down the highway, we look at an accident. You know, train wrecks, we’re on the news. Whatever. And I think that that's what they were after. Unfortunately. I think they kind of went overboard in getting their story, they also wanted the graphic pictures.

Carol:

Eventually Phyllis did agree to be interviewed – but on her terms.

Drew:

Well I think that's the thing. She came out being the person that she was and she was like, "No no no, I'll give you the story, but you're going to tell it my way." And that's just who she was. So then when people realized well we can get a story, but it's going to be spun this way, that's what helped her in the long run. Because she is spun as the strong woman that she is. And you know, I think it made it easier.

Dianne:

That and if you ask nice, she was always willing to lend a hand or to help somebody out. So by asking nice, if somebody would have knocked on the door and said, "Hey, we're sorry to bother you, but we would really like to get your story" she probably would have let them all into the front room. But because they were banging on the window and they were getting the dog all upset ... It was utter chaos.

Dianne:

Well imagine how traumatizing, when you've already been through that, and just loud banging on the windows not knowing who it is.

Carol:

That's why I was not there.

Dianne:

Yeah. But see you asked nice.

Carol:

This is Blind Rage: Bonus Episode 3: Survivors and the Media

Eventually I did get an interview with Phyllis and I did ask nice. Still, I was devastated when I got beat, when those other reporters got to Phyllis first. And I've always wondered, did I do the right thing? Would I, as an experienced reporter, wait today? Those are tough questions, which is why I invited a former colleague and friend of mine to the podcast.

Ronni Berke is an amazing producer, an award-winning journalist who worked for CNN. In fact, we worked a lot together at CNN and we interviewed a lot of people who suffered through trauma. Ronni, I know you worked at cnn. Where else did you work?

Ronni:

Uh, before CNN I worked at a news agency called Worldwide Television News, and I covered stories around the world, including the war in Bosnia.

Carol:

Wow, that must have been sort of psychologically devastating.

Ronni:

Yep. It was tough. Uh, it was tough. People, I wasn't quite in combat, but I saw the devastation, you know, that had come upon the entire population of Sara Yvo and a 500 do a 500 year old bridge, destroyed and Croatia, I mean, things like that.

Carol:

Wow. You know, I talked a lot about, in my podcast about Phyllis Cottle and how reporters covered her story, and how many of them hid in the bushes waiting to interview her, hoping she'd come out of the house so they could sort of ambush her. And, I just wanted to make clear to my listeners that that's not normal <laugh>, so I wanted you to come on and say that was shocking cuz it was shocking to me, although I didn't know it at the time.

Ronni:

Yeah. I mean, anytime anyone is a victim, they need to be treated in a different way. It's just a moral obligation that you have as a reporter. And, you do need their story. But part of the skill of learning reporting is learning how to get the story, but still showing them that respect and that, you know, basic humanity. So it's, it's a very fine line, and the more you do it, the more you learn. That's also why some famous reporters who are known for the ambush interview may not, may not be the best reporters to interview the victim of 9/11, you know, or victim's family. Maybe that's not the best story for them. And that's how editors make decisions like that on who covers what.

Carol:

Do you think that it was different in the eighties? Were reporters less sensitive to those issues, than they are today?

Ronni:

I think today is a completely new world when it comes to reporting. I mean, there are people that just go out and run after people, and they call themselves reporters. I mean, the entire world has changed in how we unique media with social media. But if you're talking about a more traditional way of covering a story, I would say that, there've always been people who, crazy, running after, you know, murder victims, families, uh, climbing through windows and things like that. I mean, the tabloids, the newspapers used to be very cutthroat, just as bad or worse than they are now. So I think you always had some people who were willing to, um, willing to do that and didn't respect victims. But,

Carol:

See, I've always, I've always wondered about that because I have always been able to, I've been always unable to do that. And I know that you have always been unable to do that. So what kind of person is that? Because, you know, there are bad apples in every profession, right?

Ronni:

I think very ambitious people. People wanna expose the truth. People wanna tell the story, they wanna get ahead. Some people just, that's part of their personality anyway, when they're dealing with friends and family. They're very pushy. They're very – they don't listen as much as they should. They're pretty much directing traffic all the time. I think it's hard to, you can't really separate who you are from being a reporter. You're still a person.

Carol:

Right. Um, I've always admired how you approach victims, survivors. And I wondered, you know, you get, uh, you get a message from on high, Ronni, I want you to, to call the parents of the victims of Sandy Hook. How did, I mean, when you get that kind of, you know, ask from the boss, what goes through your mind as a reporter?

Ronni:

Dread <laugh>. However, however, part of my frustration in covering things like mass shooting was not so much being obligated to seek out and speak to victims. It was the fact that it kept happening again and again and the story never really changed because nothing was done about it. So, it upset me that we were mostly reacting to things that happened and not really covering things that could happen, or ways to eliminate it. And the policy involved was kind of a second thought. But I do think it's important to speak to victims because I think no one is touched by a story unless they hear, from the people who are directly impacted. And, I mean, this goes through not just journalism, but it, you know, in working now with a nonprofit, I work for a nonprofit that deals with real rare disease.

And I could speak to people ‘til I'm blue in the face about my mission, but until there's a woman affected by this disease who speaks to them, they don't have the same response. So I don't wanna go too much off topic, but that is the way I approach victims. And I say, we could have Anderson Cooper on here talking about it, and it will never affect people the way it would if you did. And that's the only way to tell them what went wrong, why they should do something about it, and why it's important.

Carol:

I'm sure like, you've experienced this kind of stuff as I have that when you call a victim's family member and they just get angry at you or, or hang up on you and <laugh>, can you explain how that, like, I don't wanna make reporters sound like, you know, these avenging heroes or anything, because I understand why, where the anger comes from, but it does feel bad, right?

Ronni:

Yeah, it's terrible. Um, and I've experienced, um, I've experienced both things. I've experienced people being grateful that they could speak to us, but I, I remember specifically in West Virginia after yet another mining explosion, and, you know, someone saying, you know, “well, you didn't do anything for us last time. Why are you here?”

Carol:

Yeah. And see when those kinds of things happen, and it's totally understandable, right? This is an emotional time. Um, you really are intruding on people's pain and you know that when you're asking. So it's understandable. But I think that, um, for well-meaning reporters, it's still difficult because you do feel like you've hurt this person psychically. And I've often wondered why they don't teach us this in college. Like, why don't they offer a course in how to, to approach and interview victims of crime?

Ronni:

I think that's a terrific idea. I think it's just as important as learning how to write and shoot and all the other things.

Carol:

You know, the other thing that happens, and it, it certainly happened with me with Phyllis. Like, I made a lifelong connection with her. Like, I called for an interview. She granted the interview, we talked and we talked for over, like, off and on for 30 years. So that happens too, right? And I've often wondered how that was helpful to Phyllis, right? It was helpful to me because she, um, she was just an amazing person and fun to talk to, quite frankly. But I'm sure that you established relationships with people too. And I wondered, why that happens.

Ronni:

You know, there was a guy that, um, his son was killed on 9/11 in one of the towers. And he, he lived on Staten Island and he was retired and he sort of became the de facto communications director for the families. So everyone in news knew him because everyone wanted to speak to the family. And he had the best listserv out there. But I talked to him for a long time. He was actually not a very good television interview, but I talked to him for a long time. And there were so many different aspects of 9/11. There were the insurance, there were the case against the Saudis. There was, you know, there were so many different, there was health, healthcare, health effects. I would always call him if I wanted to get in touch with the family to see what he thought or he could help and who would be best to speak to.

But I also called him every year right before 9/11, and I would say, I'm still working on it still, what's out there? And I think he really, he really felt a lot, he felt he felt good about that, that we weren't forgetting because he didn't, they can't forget. I mean, I've talked to people who, especially victims in terrorism, I mean, who are still angry. And my attitude is they're allowed. They don't have to get over it. They're allowed, they can vent, they can get mad, um, sometimes, many, many times, they have very good recommendations and, and reasons for being mad and leads that should be followed. I mean, they're essential to the reporting. But on a personal level, he was kind of a fun guy. Um, you know, uh, typical Staten Island, um, kind of, uh, sort of separate from the, the hustle and bustle of the big city. Um, but he was, he was highly regarded by every family as just their spokesperson, their leader mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it was all just, it all happened organically.

Carol:

You know, it's interesting. I remember talking to, um, one of the parents from Sandy Hook, you know, that was the terrible mass shooting at the elementary school. I think 20 children died. Awful. But, I was just going back to the point you made about talking to victims, but nothing changes. And that's really what makes, um, victims, family members angry about the media, calling them again and again. “Why are you calling me? You're just getting like an emotional plug, but you're not really doing anything to help us,” kind of thing. And I'll always remember this mother saying, maybe, um, I should release the autopsy picture of my child and show people what these kinds of weapons do to children. And I remember having a long conversation with her about that. And finally, we, we did it on television. But I think that just talking that through with someone is helpful.

Ronni:

Well, I, I believe that they should do, there's pictures like that. I believe they should. I think that, I mean, it's a big debate in journalism now about, about doing that. But, you know, I mean, I think you're gonna give adequate warnings and all that kind of stuff, but I, I think when you hide the truth, something's lost.

Carol:

Do you really think it would make a difference? Or would people become just

Ronni:

I think it would be shocking to people. I think one of the reasons why people are numb is because it's not affecting them enough. But I, people disagree with me on that.

Carol:

I'm on the fence. I don't know, I'm on the fence. It's just, to me, it's just would be so intrusive, especially if it's a child. Even if you had the parents' permission. Um, and maybe I'm a little cynical today, and I don't know, we have this weird relationship with guns and nothing's gonna change even if we show something like that.

Ronni:

I hope not. I just don't think, I, I don't think when you're talking about a tragedy, it doesn't mean anything unless you have a victim. But interviewing victims is a tricky thing, not just because of their emotions and their pain. It's because you have to be careful that they are who they say they are.

Sometimes. Like I, I covered the Bill Cosby scandal, and I remember we interviewed, the first black woman to accuse him of doing something. And she was tremendously nervous about the interview because she didn't wanna be seen as someone who was, sabotaging her race. And we did, when the case was like this, you try to get contemporaneous, confirmation, you know, that she may have said that to someone, but after a number of years, sometimes someone's story is just – you can't make it up. I mean, it was a really odd happening with him.

And she was shaking when she told me, which indicated to me there was truth to the story. And I interviewed another woman on the phone about Bill Cosby, and she's like, “why would I be making this up? I'm a 74 year old grandmother now.” So I think that that's also something that's always in the back of your mind, because there's so many false reports and social media working things up and out of context. Now, AI, I mean, who knows what we're gonna see? But, so as a journalist, you have to be cautious about that. But the main thing is you need victims to speak to you, and you need to show compassion.

Carol:

And those two women were legit victims of Bill Cosby.

Ronni:

Oh, yeah.

Carol:

And you're not saying that a lot of women make up rape, rape allegations, because of course, you know, they don't, but as a reporter, sometimes you're being used. Did you? And that has to come into account too, that's what you're saying.

Ronni:

Yeah, I mean, you have to corroborate the same way. If you were prosecuting a case in, in which there's an alleged crime, your prosecutor would wanna see, if this happened 10 years ago, did you tell someone? Did you tell your boyfriend? Did you tell, you know, they might ask that. But there's also the personal element, especially if you're in the same room with the person. I mean, I just knew she was telling the truth. I knew it. The story was odd. It was odd. It wasn't like something you would read in a book. Like, you know – she didn't really know what was happening. She was drugged. There was a lot of fuzzy, strange details that would be hard to make up.

Carol:

And you know, your colleagues at CNN also vetted these women before they went on air, right?

Ronni:

Yeah. In the case, in the case of Newtown, it's a different, it's a different thing. I mean, everybody knows what happened, there's no question, but it's a tragedy. There's victims in all of this.

Carol:

When you were thinking about getting out of news to do your nonprofit work, um, was it in part because of the emotional stories from victims that you had to tell?

Ronni:

Yes, very much so. Time after time, you know, there's just, there were so many stories and it has not ended, you know, Boston bombing people's legs blown off, uh, mass shooting after mass shooting. I would literally be sitting in the newsroom with a feeling of dread that that call would come in and we would have to cover some bloody aftermath of something, emotionally bloody. It did, it wears on you. It really does affect you. I mean, it's hard to do for a long time. And I did it for a long time.

Carol:

Thank you Ronni, for talking to me about this. I know it was difficult at times and um, but you're just a fabulous producer and I so miss working with you.

Ronni:

Thank you, Carol. I miss you too.